Ep 62: Breaking up the party

Ep 62: Breaking up the party

Publish Date
Oct 2, 2020
Season Six
Co-CreationThis HumanChangeCollaborationspecial
Show Notes
Is a host responsible for the party going well? In this week’s podcast Melis and Cyndi explore what it means to host an online community, or a party. They also take a look at whether humans are hard wired for co operation, what it might like to be a girl at an exclusive boarding school and Melis begins to talk about a book on metamodernism, which is something about politics that aims to elevate human consciousness…maybe… Oh and we have a special offer for podcast listeners to sign up to the Unlocking Beliefs Course on thishuman.com at a discount. Code LISTEN for 50% discount - limited time. My Links for today’s podcast HumanKind Rutger Bregman: https://www.rutgerbregman.com/ Curtis Sittenfield , Prep, The American Wife and Rodham https://curtissittenfeld.com/ The listening Post https://www.amazon.com.au/Listening-Society-Metamodern-Politics-Guides-ebook/dp/B074MKQ4R

Season 6

Episode 62

Cyndi: [00:00:06] Hi and welcome to the huddle show I'm Cindy doors here with Melissa Nova

Melis: [00:00:10] Hello

Cyndi: [00:00:10] Hello So let's just get straight into it this week No preambles no explaining what we're going to do Let's just go straight in So I'm going to ask you malice What have you been noticing or seeing in the last week or so

Melis: [00:00:28] well In the last week or so I actually I've been really busy over@thishuman.com so I while at the beginning of June I think we launched the beliefs unlock the hidden power of your beliefs cause and offered it free to everybody so they could access the Guided encounter I guess with the belief system thought it was appropriate at the time with everything else that's going on in the world and as a part of that we also launched the this human community yeah Yeah And and I've just been noticing can we notice stuff about ourselves

Cyndi: [00:01:08] it's our podcast I think we can do whatever we like Actually

Melis: [00:01:11] Okay

Cyndi: [00:01:12] I realized I asked permission to swear last week on our own podcast

Melis: [00:01:15] I don't think yeah Oh that's right Cause he

Cyndi: [00:01:18] I think you can definitely

Melis: [00:01:19] I can just

Cyndi: [00:01:20] about yourself

Melis: [00:01:21] Alright well that's the whole point I guess it's on on theme with what I'm talking about in terms of the beliefs work but yeah so just the thing that I've been noticing about myself this week being heavily sort of involved in the establishment of this human community which is hosted on this platform called mighty networks And we he decided to go with mighty networks partly because I'm Kind of hopeless with the whole social thing And you know we're not looking at each other with knowing eyes going Yes that's true Melissa It's not

Cyndi: [00:01:56] I don't want to say that Cause you always accused me of saying mean things to you on this podcast

Melis: [00:02:06] and I think a part of it is I I dunno I just like I like meaningful relationships and hopelessly deep thinking and I'm looking for that connection with people And what we found was more the networks is actually designed in a way to be able to take that type of community building where it's actually quite sort of Deliberate and meaningful and curated and and all of that sort of stuff Curated in the sense that you know people asked to join or invited to join based around an area of interest and that sort of thing And I felt that that would be really good for all the people who've read This human are interested in the work in this human but the stuff that's been going on for me is just the hesitation that I have around showing up in In community that way I'm really comfortable in real life but there's there's some weird barrier that I have around this online thing where I don't where it's almost it feels like I'm putting stuff out there In the hope that it's going to be useful and helpful for people And there's no immediate sense of whether or not it actually is And also noticing I just have this I need to do some work on this Probably I'll do my own beliefs course on it Like what's the belief that sits behind this but being somewhere I'm not wanted or not needed and just never ever wanting to be that And so I feel I feel like that's been playing been playing in to the experience that I've had over the last week and also just with the acknowledgement that people are really busy and they have so many other platforms that they're across and and to not be Lack all the others you know and to be pinging them and trying to fight for their attention And like I just don't want to build that I don't want anything to do with that type of energy I really just want it to be a place where people are drawn to Elmo almost come to it as a place of reflection and rest as opposed to more beat bop bop bop bop kind of these like that and watch this and did it So Just getting my head around how to build a community like that and what my role is actually in that and to not I don't want to have too many rules around it

Cyndi: [00:04:42] See I kind of wonder if it's your job to build the community Maybe the community should build itself

Melis: [00:04:47] what I'm thinking but I don't know what that then because if you don't do anything Nothing happens at the beginnings So there

Cyndi: [00:04:56] what if

Melis: [00:04:56] be some why would we have

Cyndi: [00:05:01] no but if Yeah I mean that's a good question but I'm just thinking so there's a few things that you said one is I don't want to be anywhere I'm not wanted Well nobody's it's not like we've corralled or you've corralled people into coming to this place that they've chosen intentionally to get on a new platform and sign up to a new thing and get a new password And All of that stuff I've just done this So that's my PTSD on having to join a new platform So people have chosen to do that So they must want something And but is it your job to make them a community or is it just your job to put things into the world and see if they I want them and if nobody comes and stop I dunno

Melis: [00:05:51] Yeah And I think that's the that's the that's the inquiry and the challenge that I find myself in which is I cause I don't think I mean there are people who who do this for a living right People who curate and build communities And it's certainly not something that I do for a living deliberately accidentally It happens of course but I'm not sure whether or not you can I just I don't even know how to finish that sentence Part of me goes I think you can actually go about and deliberately build a community quite intentionally actually and go here's this and here's that and here are the rules of engagement and there's a little bit of that in the thing as well because I did want to set the tone around What sort of space this is I think that's appropriate but then to actually enact the community like the creation of the activity and the sharing and the collaboration and all that sort of stuff that is just completely out of your control as a host meaning just I think all you can really do is just create the conditions and hope that those conditions foster those types of interactions and connections and stuff And if they don't to your point and they don't and to have like to not I think that's probably what it is I'm just This is very deep and vulnerable sharing but the the to not have an attachment how it's going to be

Cyndi: [00:07:16] Yeah I mean I you know this podcast is generally brought to you by Glennon Doyle and I'm going to mention her again I think she has intentionally created some communities bot but I don't see her I mean she and she is quite active on social media But she's just using content she's already created She's just talking about things It's not very it's not salesy It's not in your face If you don't want to be there you don't have to be there But I also think about these communities a bit like this is going to be a really low brow metaphor or analogy to stay with it It's like when you have a party and your job is to Have some music and some food and clean your house and have nice lighting and try and invite people You think again they'd get along or whatever but actually there's that moment of horror and every party or gathering that you host where you think I don't think this is going to go very well I haven't done it enough I don't know if people are gonna like a time but actually it's their job to have a good time which is the I always have this moment of release and anxiety at a when I host something And I wonder if it's a bit the

Melis: [00:08:30] I think it is exactly the same Well it feels it feels exactly the same for me actually And that that's a really useful metaphor Thank you

Cyndi: [00:08:38] I really felt a bit low rabbit Yeah

Melis: [00:08:39] no no Cause that cause I I actually I mean they're yeah the content that gets covered in the book this human is really it's deep stuff and I want the community to be a place where that can be lightened a little bit you know And that it is a little bit like I mean it's not a party but it is a little bit like that you know it's light and friendly and supportive and and humorous and joyful and and open and

Cyndi: [00:09:08] you can meet new people and mingle and

Melis: [00:09:11] yeah

Cyndi: [00:09:12] Decide to go and have coffee after the party or you know

Melis: [00:09:15] Yeah Oh and while we're on the topic of all of this the beliefs course

Cyndi: [00:09:20] Yes let's do that

Melis: [00:09:22] So for all of the podcast listeners so you listening now we're

Cyndi: [00:09:31] we know there's more than one of you so there's you and

Melis: [00:09:33] yeah you went to we're going to be offering a 50% discount on the beliefs cause and you can find that over@thishuman.com we will put the link in the show notes and the coupon code is the word Listen Which we will also put in the show notes and that's it's just a little quickie Thank you for listening to us And yeah just in the offering

Cyndi: [00:10:04] Yeah Should we just do a quick little snapshot of what that is

Melis: [00:10:07] Yes The beliefs course Yeah Sure So it is one of the early exercises that comes up in the book this human And it's designed as a guided tour of your own belief system and you basically go step by step through first of all understanding what beliefs are and where they come from and then how they operate sort of in the background guiding the way you might perceive things make meaning of things decide things about yourself decide things about the world and in going through that sort of guided I like to call it an encounter with your beliefs that have influenced you over time you are given away to kind of assess whether or not you think that they're still useful and resourceful for you and helping you navigate the world in a kind of you know supportive way Or the opposite to that which is you know perhaps I just need to tweak this a little bit or perhaps I need to just sort of drop it entirely because it's so old And so out of date and yeah and I'm just not the same person I am now that I was when I was you know 13 or whatever when I decided this is about myself and yeah and then It sort of culminates in a okay Now how do we put this new perspective this new belief into action and intended as a kind of a lifelong practice that you just sort of first of all get exposed to and then hopefully then just integrates into the way you get about the place

Cyndi: [00:11:50] Yeah I'm up to doing it for my second time and it's I know we're making it sound pretty I feel like I'm making it sound very ponderous and it can be quite ponderous You could do it around Like very deeply held beliefs about very big things Or you could do it about smaller things I mean Melissa and I often joke that we're making a new belief about our ability with technology quite deliberately Yeah because we constantly

Melis: [00:12:18] tell

Cyndi: [00:12:18] we're not very good with technology but maybe that's not true So we're trying to create a new belief around that So you could do it about something as small as that I'm currently doing it on my views on my beliefs around racism and equality I guess which is pretty ponderous but it's it's quite powerful Anyway it's our gift to you and if you get something out of it that'd be great And then you could come and join us at the unlocking your beliefs sub-community of the your human

Melis: [00:12:46] Yeah This human community Yeah So there's a there's this human community which is a whole bunch of sort of like minded people who have been captured at the book and done some work with us or eat or whatever And then when you enroll in a course you basically get put into a group That's just about that course where it's almost like a like a private learning environment where you can ask questions and You know I drop in and onto them in the communities there that are learning with you that can you know help each other through basically So it's more it's it's more private and secluded and then then this human communities just serve everyone Yeah Anyway

Cyndi: [00:13:26] Like the private dining room at the potty Yeah Anyway should we move on to yeah Reading watching Yeah So speaking of beliefs I am reading a book that Comes at something probably in exactly the opposite WIDA the way you write So you love to read to challenge yourself and find something new And I am reading something at the moment which really just validates something that I believe but in finding it very comforting and reassuring as I'm reading this book cold humankind by w Bregman who is the guy who wrote A utopia for realists and who took on all the kind of capitalist And we'll probably go to Davos about two years ago maybe or maybe last year where they're all talking about inequality And he basically said well you don't even pay your taxes So maybe you could do that he's a historian who decided to leave academia because he wanted to make a difference and not spend three years Writing about something nobody cared about which is what he says I don't think that's what I can That makes dope just for my academic friends Anyway So he's written this book and the basic premise is that humans are hardwired to be kind and social and good to one another which anybody who knows me will know is my very deeply held belief And he does it in a really interesting way So he starts with looking at how like there's a whole bunch of homo species around those Neanderthals and homo sapiens and homos something else's that I forget and erectus that's it How did I'm my sapiens Bay the ones that thrived and survived And I think the guy who wrote sapiens he his I see Scott

Melis: [00:15:19] Harari You've all heard Yeah

Cyndi: [00:15:22] Homosapiens just eliminated the Neanderthals in the other season It is that right

Melis: [00:15:27] I'm not sure I can't remember

Cyndi: [00:15:29] Anyway anyway but Bregman's a theory which he backs up with some very interesting scientific experiments He doesn't do them but he references scientific experiments to do with raising baby foxes to be domesticated Is that sapiens had They bred for friendliness It wasn't survival of the fittest It was survival of the friendliness friendliest

Melis: [00:15:54] Friendliest Yeah

Cyndi: [00:15:55] They had the most children they'll most open to cooperation And so that's how they became the dominant

Melis: [00:16:01] Oh interesting

Cyndi: [00:16:02] And then he goes on to look at these two competing philosophical schools of thought So he looks at Russo and he looks at hubs hubs was English or so as French and hubs philosophy was based on that Actually he scratched a human deep down There was just a Savage hype and institutions and organizations and society had to be based on that premise and kind of mitigate Whereas Russo felt that I think he uses the phrase natural man was you know joyous and friendly and kind and cooperative And so Rebecca Brickman says essentially society has taken that hubs in view of the world And that what we do is we pattern match So we look for things that reinforce that for us So for instance the news is always about things bad things You know So for instance a couple of days ago there was a a group of people playing a violin to honor someone who had been killed and violin music was his favorite thing And a bunch of police came in and beat them up Now that is a terrible terrible thing but maybe for every one of those incidents there are a hundred why people are doing beautiful things like that all around the world And there's no negative consequence So and we don't get to hear about

Melis: [00:17:27] isn't that way

Cyndi: [00:17:27] That's right because it's looking at exceptions And then he also talks about I haven't finished this book yet And but he also talks about how humans are the only species that have white around the colored bits of their eyes And what this allows you to do is see in which direction people are looking So it's harder to deceive one another And he also talks about humans are the only species that have the capacity to blush which is a symbol of shame or

Melis: [00:17:59] embarrassment

Cyndi: [00:18:00] And so he talks about how shame is actually a great enabler which is very interesting because Bernay Brown thinks shame is a great disabler We should move beyond that So I'm quite interested to see the differences there but the I mean I could talk about some of the stories he tells and they're excellent but I have a little I really wanted to love this and to you know validate everything I thought but there's a little bit of me and he's very Malcolm Gladwell in the way he writes which I love I'm a big Malcolm Gladwell fan And what he does is he he kind of cherry picks evidence to support his point of view Of course that's what everybody does so I really want to love it but I'm not entirely sure that it's all correct Like I feel like I'm pattern matching myself but he does have and he finishes up with these these kind of 10 rules And one of them is don't watch the news because that's actually just going to help you patent much that the world is bad The other is actually believe everyone's coming from a great place And that's going to mean he says over the course of your life that yeah Every now and then someone's going to rip you off or you're going to be to saved but that's okay That's the collateral that you pay for truly believing there's good in the world And he talks about loving others as you love your own And how for instance even that plane was shut down over Malaysia and it was flying from the Netherlands to Malaysia I think he didn't really have a response to that til he read about somebody Who had died on that Who was like him And he really identified with them then he had a great deal of care for this and is saying if we all had that point of view in the world we would act differently on he's got a couple of other roles One of yeah I can't remember them all but so it's a really fascinating book and he's a very engaging person I went to a Like a zoom author discussion He did the other night so I am enjoying reading it but there's a little bit of me thinking Oh maybe I should read more like Melissa that I should be looking for something that doesn't agree with my point of view

Melis: [00:20:13] Hmm

Cyndi: [00:20:14] right at the moment I kind of need

Melis: [00:20:15] Yeah Yeah And and you know I think I'd be interested to understand a little bit more around the the hesitation that you're feeling to just go just to go with it cause ultimately you know the the every like I was saying in the Q and a session this morning If you were to approach interaction that you had in your life as a as an opportunity for learning And you know you're reading this book at the moment that just happens to be espousing the things that that you have already sort of Arrived at what's wrong with an enabling or allowing these interactions with the book to be nourishing and validating and and energizing for you what's the hesitation there

Cyndi: [00:21:07] I think the hesitation is I think I sought it out because it Validates my view I don't think it's happenstance that I'm writing this book and I think their hesitation is is that and maybe we talked about this last week on this soul in some of the conversation that I am a bit worried that people are creating bubbles for themselves And we increasingly on only look for things that validate a point of view which is how We arrive at some of the situations we arrive at And so I have a little concern about myself doing

Melis: [00:21:37] that Yeah

Cyndi: [00:21:38] but I also do feel the need me having someone else validate my point of

Melis: [00:21:45] Yeah And I think a lot of the external inputs that we are getting at the moment are Contra our view of the world And so perhaps this is Just bringing a little bit of balance backing to that perspective and necessary The other thing that this is another project for us to put on the list of projects that we're going to

Cyndi: [00:22:03] do

Melis: [00:22:04] so you listened to Spotify Do you use Spotify So on Spotify there's this playlist that gets created for you called taste breakers

Cyndi: [00:22:14] Oh

Melis: [00:22:15] Yeah I happened across it the other day And it's music that is

Cyndi: [00:22:21] opposite to what you

Melis: [00:22:22] as well It's it's it's done really well actually because it's kind of like it's familiar but not what you would choose to listen to

Cyndi: [00:22:32] which is generally sad India

Melis: [00:22:37] Okay And and I thought we apps we absolutely need that for news Right So we need that too Go on the on the point of expanding our bubbles and you know not everyone deliberately seeks out opposing perspectives and challenging texts and stuff like that but something like a Tice breaker would actually be really great in that you know say you've got a feed that's interested in you know emerging tech but you particularly interested in Space And that's what your whole world is about there could be a taste breaker fee That's still about emerging tech that might be reusing space tech in you know developing countries water finding resourcing distribution whatever it's just like it eight I was just thinking about it Cause I found myself in the playlist going ah I'd never choose to listen to this song but it's I actually I kind of like it and it's outside of my normal taste and that concept applied to

Cyndi: [00:23:40] what

Melis: [00:23:40] read and what we expose our tout through I think it would be really really useful like especially in a political sense where you're so sort of it can be such a polarizing thing I mean all of their really big sort of tricky social topics to navigate you know religion and politics and all of that sort of stuff to be able to slightly stretch and open perspectives to allow potential and possibility and of other ways of viewing things and other ways of coming to a solution I think would be really really really beneficial right now

Cyndi: [00:24:16] which is an algorithm all a social media What are they called Platforms could really easily do or is the algorithms to the opposite Interesting

Melis: [00:24:27] You said algorithm

Cyndi: [00:24:28] I know Cause I'm really great at

Melis: [00:24:30] you are great at tech

Cyndi: [00:24:33] Are you reading anything

Melis: [00:24:34] Oh yeah Just on the topic of politics actually I think I mentioned this last week the book called the listening society I'm listening to it How funny is I'm listening to it in the audio book by a gentleman called Hanzi Friedley I hope that's the correct way of pronouncing his name He I think he's an academic I'm not quite sure He's definitely a philosopher And it's been quite an interesting journey so far in the way that he's chosen to write the prologue At least I am into the introduction but the prologue was really so I think last week we spoke about What's her name Hannah Gatsby the comedian and how she sets up her the latest Netflix special or Douglas and I find that he's doing exactly the same thing So he's basically introducing the topic of Oh God I'm going to get it wrong again

Cyndi: [00:25:29] let's just measure modernism

Melis: [00:25:31] Political met a modernism and he he introduced us And then in the prologue talks about the different sections of the book and then also Suggests how the Raiders going to react how different groups and different genres or cohorts of readers are going to have different perspectives on the things that he's putting forward and it's really interesting cause there's a there's a part of me that's listening to him That's going well you don't know who I am Who are you to

Cyndi: [00:25:59] That's right It feels like a challenge to

Melis: [00:26:01] Yeah Yeah At the same time I feel like he's doing it for exactly the reason Right to establish that kind of connection and dissonance and then also you know sometimes he he refers to himself as the great Hanzy Friedly and I think that like the sitting with that going are you are you doing that from a perspective of taking yourself really seriously or the complete opposite which is Almost like taking the piss

Cyndi: [00:26:33] just makes me think of a magician Like that's a great magician's name the great Hansey

Melis: [00:26:37] yeah yeah I'm actually I'm really enjoying the journey that he's taking me on and I loved one part of it which is still I think in the prologue where he's actually saying that we As the reader engaging with the words that he has chosen to put down to be able to communicate what he sees as a potential new and emerging model for society and politics from a philosophical and other viewpoints that we are acting in We are engaging in an active co-creation and that In the form that it is in that you know what I'm looking at actually I'm not listening to it I'm reading it on Kindle Yeah Cause there's no audio book version On it's basically static words on a page And he said in in that respect he's kind of powerless in that interaction all the palace it's the reader and how the reader chooses to engage with those words and the meaning that the reader makes with those words And that is the act of co-creation which I loved Cause that kind of sits with the sort of philosophy that sits behind the work that we do around co-creation and the the tenants upon which this Perspective is built on is validating for me though to go back to your point it's already within my the mental models that I have around a world that's trying to be born actually it's in the fits and throws of of that so yeah I'm sure I'll be talking about that over many episodes Cause it's quite a it's a dense tome It's quite big

Cyndi: [00:28:13] it does mean we've moved on from power and force though which I'm pleased about

Melis: [00:28:19] you brought it up

Cyndi: [00:28:23] up That notion of cocreation though is exactly what happens when people read fiction as well which is why when you know when they make a film of a book and people are really anxious and trepidatious about

Melis: [00:28:37] that Yeah

Cyndi: [00:28:37] and then they it's because they've got they've created their version of that pace of of work and who those characters are and what they look like And How they talk to one another and where they live and and and then when they come out of the film and they're disappointed it's because the the why they've created that piece of fiction doesn't gel with how a director or a producer or somebody else did that for them So which is one of the beautiful things about reading is that you can you have that power to create your own world

Melis: [00:29:12] Yeah I often wonder cause there are some people who are visual There are some people who aren't you know they they they don't see pictures in their minds They it's a different thing

Cyndi: [00:29:23] there's a whole word for that Isn't that

Melis: [00:29:25] I can't remember now and I often wonder about what What they perceive when they read fiction because I'm very visual So I get very detailed visual pictures of things when I'm reading and and obviously a film is a visual medium so what happens when people don't actually think in pictures they think in sounds or Yeah

Cyndi: [00:29:54] textural Yeah I don't know Interesting We should probably move on to the mystery question

Melis: [00:30:00] Oh you were going to your head

Cyndi: [00:30:01] Oh I do have a book Yeah This week is all about Easy pleasure for me

Melis: [00:30:06] Awesome joy

Cyndi: [00:30:08] And so I think yeah I don't know if I talked about this earlier on this podcast I began a book by a woman called Curtis Sittenfeld I think is a really great writer And it was about Hilary wrote him Carter And what would have happened to sh Nakata Clinton Hillary Roden wrote him Clinton and what her life might have been like had she not married Bill Clinton So I began that book but I really did not love it So I stopped reading that book this week because this is all about joy And I went to an earlier book of hers called prep which is a sensibly about a girl from Indiana from a working class family who wins a scholarship all off her own bat to go to this pretty prestigious boarding school

Melis: [00:30:50] So were they both fiction The Hillary

Cyndi: [00:30:52] Clinton Yeah Yeah Fiction

Melis: [00:30:53] Oh right Okay So it's a made up We got it Got it Got it Got

Cyndi: [00:30:57] She did another one about Laura Bush actually called the American wife which is a great book I know So this is about a teenage girl who goes to this prestigious boarding school and and you see everything through her eyes Absolutely Everything And it's really really beautifully observed and that painful awkwardness of being a girl and wanting to fit in And there's a really beautiful line that I won't remember but it's something like I spent my whole time wanting to be noticed but hoping I never stood out and so it's got it's got really interesting reflections on cloths and money and race and girl hood And it's also very funny and everyone needed it has really strange names Maybe they're not strange if you live in America but people call things like Gates and little That's their first name Gates Gates Yeah Chin and little something and

Melis: [00:31:56] Yeah Right

Cyndi: [00:31:57] Devin something And Anyway it's really really well observed And so sharply written it's it's quite a great

Melis: [00:32:06] And you were enjoying it

Cyndi: [00:32:07] Oh so

Melis: [00:32:08] Yeah And I think was this the book that surprised

Cyndi: [00:32:11] Yes it did surprise me I thought it would be pretty pretty light and it turns out it's quite a lot of depth but it's it's delivered very lightly So that is that is quite

Melis: [00:32:27] Yeah Cool All right Let's do it

Cyndi: [00:32:30] the mystery question All right I've got this big piece of paper I'm unfolding it You can probably all hear that Cause we're not great at dealing with the Mike stuff Oh my goodness This question has a technology element so you're ready Cause you're going first like the advancements in technology that changed the human experience What do you think will be the next evolution to have a similar kind of impact to the way humans exist

Pause So I guess technology industrial revolution

Melis: [00:33:12] Yeah but it's then it's it's other than it's other than tech Yeah So I That's kind of relevant I think to the sorts of things that I'm reading about now partly because I most of my nonfiction rating has really been centered around talk about the bubble has been centered around understanding human kind Yeah So asses individual's performance neuroscience altered States of consciousness and then The way that we've evolved So the you know sapiens and homo Deus and a lot of the Edward I will send stuff like lots of lots of that kind of thing I I haven't never really volunteer terribly chose and to read a book about politics in my life And and I feel like the The next things that are going to have really significant And this is a hopeful view FYI those types of systems So the political system super system the financial super system the education super system the health super system and it is the I feel like the I'm business big business the tenets and the principles That have underpinned their evolution the things that are under threat right now in terms of the power structures and the motivating values and the theories around efficiency and optimization and the and the value structures that God those types of decisions I feel like they are the very things that are under threat right now They are the very things that are being questioned and my hopeful view Is that it's going to be fundamental shifts in those structures that are going to have this new way of navigating life emerge

Cyndi: [00:35:11] Hm I probably am coming at almost the same thing a little differently Cause mine is also quite a hopeful view of what's going to shape the future of humans And my hope and belief is that it will be actually kind of social movement So stuff around feminism and egalitarianism and a light box sensible response to climate change

Melis: [00:35:42] Yeah

Cyndi: [00:35:43] So I hope that that the rise of Increased human action And and coming together at a global level on those things will be the things that shape those things you talked

Melis: [00:35:57] Yeah

Cyndi: [00:35:58] to make things different because they're not going to shape themselves

Melis: [00:36:02] no And that's the other thing that we often always fall back to Right Those super systems that I'm talking about they they're made of people And perhaps the the thing that both your perspective and my perspective were actually pointing to is it's a values like a value set That is is what's being challenged right now more so than the systems themselves but the value sets that inform the way that we are and the decisions that we make and the choices that we

Cyndi: [00:36:37] right because the way our institutions are set up reflect the dominant values of the

Melis: [00:36:43] Yeah Yeah for sure So that's the answer then Yeah it's the values

Cyndi: [00:36:49] think we've solved that everybody

Melis: [00:36:52] Now the chief listened to the answer Yeah

Cyndi: [00:36:59] It's probably time to

Melis: [00:37:00] Yeah I think so Thank you Cindy for listening And we'll see you again Bye bye